In this episode we had a great conversation with Lisa Unger. Check out last Friday’s blog for links to her website, books, and the wine.
Some of the highlights were when we talked about Character Development, which we also talked about during Episode 3. Lisa Unger is an expert and she gave us a peak on how she does it!
If you haven’t already you should really listen to this episode. Then go back and listen to our book club idea episode for Lisa’s latest Book! S2E3: The Stranger Inside and FitVine Sauvignon Blanc.
Listen to all our episodes and subscribe right here!
Below is a transcript of this episode, but trust me, it is more fun to listen! And you can listen while you exercise, clean, ride the subway, or are on the road.
Welcome to the game of books with Cathi in South Dakota. That’s me and Christie in South Florida. That’s me. We’re two newbie writers sharing our take on wine, food and mystery books and the authors who write them. Join us for the fun.
Welcome to the game of books podcast, corks and conversation. We are so excited to be talking with best-selling author Lisa Unger.
Yes. And last week on our GOB podcast, um, book club episode, we talked about her latest book, the stranger Inside named best book by people magazine, Boston globe, BookBub, pop sugar, crime read. She reads, book trib, mystery Tribune, and more.
Just keep going. Just keep going. We loved the book, love talking about it and we loved pairing it with food and wine.
Yes, I absolutely. And now we have the pleasure to welcome Lisa Unger. She is a New York times and internationally bestselling author of 17 novels with millions of readers worldwide and novels published in 26 languages. Lisa Unger is widely regarded as a master of suspense. In 2019 she received two Edgar award nominations, an honor held by only a few writers, including Ruth Rendell and Agatha Christie. Lisa Unger’s critically acclaimed books have been voted best of the year or top picks by the today show. Good morning America entertainment weekly, Amazon, indie bound and many others. Her writing has appeared in the New York times, wall street journal, NPR and travel & leisure. And she lives on the West coast of Florida with her family, which is not too far from me. Lisa, we’re so happy you’re available to talk with us today.
Oh, I’m thrilled to be here. Thanks so much for having me on.
Absolutely. Before we get started with our conversation though, Cathi, why don’t you tell everyone what wine we’re drinking today?
Oh, I’d be happy to. Um, we are going to each enjoy a glass of Louis Martini Cabernet Sauvignon from Sonoma County. I’m going to have a sip now. Okay. Yes, I think we all should. Yeah, that is the point of enjoying this together. That’s yummy. It is! Okay. So this is, um, it’s got a really interesting description. Um, and I, I did mention that it’s from Sonoma County for a reason. Um, according to the, um, website for Louis Martini. Um, this Cabernet reflects the best of the warm, narrow dry Creek Valley and the hot yet wind Alexander Valley together. These unique features. Yeah. So apparently that’s very specific to this area. And together these unique features create a balanced Cabernet Sauvignon with concentrated notes of are you ready? Dark fruit, black tea and cocoa. Oh, the full, yeah. So the cocoa was interesting and it’s supposed to lead to a supple and persistent finish, which I don’t really know what that means, but anyway, let’s enjoy and see what we think.
Well, I think it’s really good. I think this, this is tasty. And Lisa, you chose the wine. So, um, do you have any interesting stories surrounding this choice or can you?
I don’t. I don’t really have anything to say about it at all, haha, except to say that I don’t know that much about wine. I’m not, you know, I’ve only recently like started to enjoy it and I, um, but I really find that the, you know, the Cabernet Sauvignon could be like kind of my favorite because it’s very big, you know, it doesn’t, it’s like it’s fruity and like kind of round and like bold and in a way that other wines aren’t. So I have a couple of favorites. There’s this one. And then also I like a Caymus and also a Clos Pegas. Um, and that’s just kind of, I mean, I, you know, as a wine drinker, it’s purely about, you know, what tastes good to me.
Right, right. Yeah. And for us it’s also, this is good because this is under $20, which is what we kind of tried to, you know, do. So it’s a great wine to have on hand and everything.
With the other very expensive wines. Like I don’t, I don’t think that they’re, you know, I think that this really holds its own with those, with those other more expensive lines.
Yeah. I think it really is good. Yeah. Well, good choice. Thank you, Lisa. Thank you. Okay. So now that we have our wine in hand, I’m going to ease into some questions. Um, okay, so you, um, actually one question that, that came up on our, um, last week’s podcast. We were wondering, since you’re this international bestseller and your book is in a lot of different languages, books are in a lot of different languages. Do you have copies of all those books in all those different languages?
I do. I do have, I mean you definitely, you definitely get, you know, five or 10 copies from, for every foreign edition and, and not just, you know, not just that we also get, you know, five or 10 copies of, you know, the audio used to get the, I mean I’m not sure how much longer that’ll be where you get the box of CDs. Like a lot of it’s digital now, but yeah, you get the audio, the large print edition, you know, all, so there’s a whole, you know, there’s always a big influx of books and the foreign additions you always see the cover early. You know, cause they send it to you much in the way your US publisher will, you know, send your cover, your cover proof for approval and stuff. So you always kind of know. But it’s always very exciting to see the, the foreign edition of, of everybody, not every book is, you know, has the same format, you know, the same foreign publishers. So every, there’s a lot of different visions.
Oh, fun. Oh that’s fun.
I’d love to see your library shelves. That just fun.
Yeah.
Um, so also over the years you’ve, um, given some really solid advice to aspiring authors like Cathi and me and many of our listeners, one of the things that stood out, which was the biggest first step, meaning you have to actually finish your novel. And we know you’ve finished, um, and published at least 17 novels. So it appears you have that down. And so we’re kind of curious, do you have like a strict writing schedule, like a time of day or so many words or hours or can you just tell us a little bit about your process in getting that novel written?
Yeah, absolutely. I am. So I, you know, my golden creative hours are from 5:00 AM to noon. If that is the time of day when I am at my most creative and the earlier I can be at my desk, the better, you know, before the earlier you can get it at your desk before you know everybody else’s awake and before your internal editor gets up and your external editor, does that matter and, and your mother hopefully, you know, like you can some of the early areas, can you get to the desk and be as close as possible, at least for me to that dream brain, the better. So my ideal writing day is, you know, I get a creative cycle in between like five and seven and that’s usually when my daughter gets up and I get her ready for school and all of that stuff.
And then, um, I’m back to my desk by eight 15 and then that next block, that eight 15 to 1215 block. That’s, you know, very, it’s very important. It’s very important to the process to have those for like sort of uninterrupted hours. And then, you know, I’ll probably break in, you know, around that time and eat and exercise and then try to get one more creative cycle in before my daughter gets home from school. Um, and then once, you know, she’s done and it’s kinda like game on mom time, you know, like running around activities, homework, dinner, all that stuff. So that’s kind of the ideal day. And then like sort of the shallow work, uh, social media and you know, the business stuff and all that. Like I tried to keep that for the time when she’s doing her homework because, you know, once she’s home and I’m in that other brain, creativity comes less easily to me in that later part of the day.
Oh, that’s interesting. Yeah,
something that’s very specific to me. Like a lot of people feel that their creativity comes at the end of the day, you know, when everything’s done and then that’s when they can be, that’s when they can close it all off and do what they need to do. But that, that’s really what works best for me.
Right. And I think both Cathi and I are morning people like that too. And I like how you called it the dream brain because that’s so true. Like you wake up and you’ve got this thought in your head and you know, if you don’t get it down on paper then it’s gone, you know? Wow, that’s great.
Yeah, I mean I think it’s very, I mean in my process is like very, it’s very subconscious. Like I write without an outline. You don’t know who’s going to show up day to day or what they’re going to do. So I really have to be in that head space. Like I have to be very present for that kind of storytelling mind and, and the earlier in the day, the better.
Well, that kind of leads to the other question that I had for you, which was, um, we talked about last week also that developing characters and you know, you’ve, you write such richly developed characters. And so yeah, we were wondering, you know, now you’re saying that maybe you don’t, but we thought, well maybe write a detailed history and physical description of the character, before you even start writing or?
No, no, nothing like that. So a long time ago I started thinking, I stopped thinking of characters as people that I create and started thinking of them as people that I need. And even though that’s of course and not the truth of it, that is how I experience it. So I get to know my characters on the page much in the same way that my readers will later get to know them. Well sort of layer by layer. Interesting. And I’ve sort of, you know, everything, everything, everything about the book flows from those characters, all plot flows from those characters. So for me like there could be like a moment, you know, there’s a journey, there’s always a germ, right? For the story. It might be something that I read, it might be a new story, it might be a line of poetry. So it could be anything really.
And then whatever that is in the case of the stranger inside. For me, it was something that I read a long time ago while researching another novel. I read a book called the inner world of trauma by Dr. Donald Kalsched. And in that he talked about, um, in the case he talked about mental illness in a way that I had not heard before. Um, so in the case of extreme child childhood trauma, uh, the psyche can split. It’s not like split personality disorder in the way that we know at like in fiction, but it’s, um, where the stronger aspects of the personality emerge to protect, to protect the weaker aspects of the personality. And the way he wrote about it, the way he talked about it, it was almost like, you know, um, it was almost like as if it were a gift. Like that is how the self survive extreme trauma.
Oh, that was, that was so interesting how you did it in the book too. That was
right. So, so that was the, so that was the germ and that idea kicks around for a long time. Like any of them do, like the kind of, and it will lead to like a lot of research. I’ll start doing all this research about a topic that obsesses me, which in this case is the, um, you know, it’s a, it’s a jungian term called the splinter psyche. Okay. And so that kind of obsesses me and I, I tried to learn as much about it as I can and then while I’m in that process, like the best way I can describe it as if it connects with something greater that’s going on within me, then I start to hear a voice or voices. So it might be one voice, it might be multiple voices, and then I follow those voices through the manuscript.
That’s cool.
And I’ve written every single book this way.
Yeah. It’s sort of like that split personality thing that you’re talking about!
It is a little bit. Cause I really do feel like the person who sits down to write is not the same person who gets up and you know, packs a lunch for my daughter then takes her to school and was sitting on the car line later like, yeah. And a lot of ways I feel like it’s not, it’s not the same brain. And you know that. And, and, and truly I’ve always been this way. Like I’ve never, I don’t remember a time in my life before I considered myself a writer. So I’ve always been doing this in one way or another.
Well we’re happy for that.
Oh my goodness yes, so once you get your germ and you do your research and then you just start with your characters talking to you and just write in a linear fashion from beginning to end.
I do, yeah. I don’t know. I don’t know what’s going to happen. I don’t know. I’m not even a hundred percent sure what the book is about while I’m writing. And I definitely don’t know how it’s going to end. I’m sure there are easier ways to do this.
Right? My linear brain can’t take this!
just so at some point you have to look at. Yeah,
some people do. I mean, I think you will find, probably you’ve talked to a lot of writers that you’ll find that people do fall into two distinct camps and both camps are very, you know, you find plenty of people who are doing it with great success either way. But there are those meticulous outliners.
That’s Cathi!
They have a clear idea of how the book is going to go. They have full character sketches. They have, um, you know, they have everything, um, that you know, is going to be in the book and they’re aware of it, you know, before they sit down to start writing the book and then there are people that write the way I do.
Yeah. So basically there’s no right or wrong, it’s whatever works for you.
Yeah, for sure.
Just finishing it as you say,
If you finish the book, it works for you.
Right, exactly. Okay. All right. So Lisa, we have a little transition here. This is the time we like to ask our authors what we call the question in the bottle. Just kind of random questions that might come up if you get towards the bottom of an actual wine bottle. Um, Oh, we’ll pick a random question. And if you don’t like it, you can pass and we’ll try it another. So Christie, what do we have?
Okay. So this question is, would you rather live for a week in the past or the future?
The future.
Oh, well that was clearly, yeah, you didn’t even think about that one. That was a gut reaction.
Do you know how far in the future?
As far as possible?
Obviously
I’m so curious about how um, we’re going to evolve or if we’re going to evolve as a species. Right? Oh my gosh. I’m really curious about that, like really. I know, I know. Legitimate. Scary though. It’s just a little scary. Yeah, exactly.
Okay, so I’ve got a couple of questions for you. So on your website, on Lisaunger.com, by the way, you have a notes tab where you have written conversations with other authors like Mary Kubica and Tess Gerritsen. And I love reading these.
I’m so glad.
I love it. And I’m sure your other fans do too. And so I was wondering how this came about. It’s such a great read.
Um, yeah. How it came about. This is like such an interesting thing. I, so one of my good writer pals is a Los Angeles based thriller writer, New York times bestseller, Greg Hurwitz and we’ve been friends forever. And we got asked by, um, I’m trying to remember what the publication was. It might’ve been book list or yeah, it might’ve been book list and they wanted us to, they wanted us to argue about a point. I do it this way. You do that. They wanted us to argue in writing about a certain thing and we literally could, we sincerely, could not find one thing can be disagreed about.
So that was a fail.
Not I’m in process or personal or anything. So we were like, can we just interview each other? Can we just have a, you know, can we just have a chat? And they were like, yeah, okay, fine.
Alright. Boring.
Yeah so I just started doing it. And I just love doing it with him because it was such a, you know, it was such a nice way for us to kind of hang out. We, you know, we live in different parts of the country. We only see each other once a year or twice a year of that. So it was kind of a nice thing to do. And so I just kind of thought, wow, how nice is this? I wonder if other people would want to do it with me. And every once in awhile, you know, I ask somebody to do, I call it my pen pal series. Yeah. So basically I write, you know, I write something and then end with a question and then the other, my other, you know, the other author will, um, you know, answer the question and with the question and we kind of go back and forth a few times. And, uh, it only, it’s always different. It always turns into like such an interesting conversation and I feel like it could just kind of go on and on. I usually kinda, you know, check it after four or five, you know, back and forth cause they’re long, you know, they’re pretty long. Um, but it’s just been such a nice way to connect with people and get to know them.
I just find it fascinating. Yeah. Just, I’m just, the thought occurred to me, you should really compile them into a book.
Yeah, that’s a great idea.
Just as a separate little project.
Cathi wants a commission, haha.
Yeah sure, it was your idea.
No, no, no. But I just love reading them. So I’m guessing one of the perks then for you or upsides of this writing world is your relationships with other writers. I’m just guessing because in addition to what you just said, Christie and I got to see you at ThrillerFest being interviewed by Karen Slaughter.
Wow. Oh my God. Yes.
I was the timer that didn’t know what she was doing.
I know my favorite thing was that Karen shows up with this unicorn headband or something.
Yeah it was a unicorn horn and we wore them the entire time. I actually forgot we were wearing them. Even though I was looking at her and she was wearing it. It sort of became normal after awhile.
It was great. It was great.
That was awesome.
Yeah. Karen and I, we’ve been friends for a really long time and, um, you know, she, she’s just like, she’s one of my besties. And, uh, and that really is the case. I mean, I’ve been being for, you know, I’ve been writing for I guess 17 years now. I’ve been published for 17 years. Uh, prior to that I also worked in book publishing. So I kind of, you know, it’s definitely like my home industry. So over the years, you know, those relationships of all, like any other relationship that you have, you know, you become friends with your colleagues in any, in, you know, in any industry I’m sure. And so that’s, you know, kind of how it’s been for me. And I think just specifically like the, you know, the thriller mystery community is just such a nice community. I mean, we’re very sort of genuinely kind of into each other and supportive of each other. And, you know, we do a lot to, to help each other and, you know, and spread the word about, um, other people’s books and stuff. And we’re, you know, and that’s a true like sort of organic thing, you know, there’s a genuine affection there. So, uh, I really love that about our community and it’s definitely,
I’ve really noticed it too. I’m Cathi and I have, cause you know, I mean we met at a conference but then you know, all this, whenever we interview somebody or we just meet somebody at a conference, everybody’s so giving, you know, it’s really nice.
Yeah. Yeah.
I wondered if it was like, like you say, it is, I mean it’s a really nice warm community and I wondered if it has something to do with the fact that, you know, we’re, we’re all doing a solitary task and then when you get together, you know, I don’t know.
Yeah. But I hear other writing communities are not as warm.
Oh really?
It’s something specific to the mystery thrillers community. Cause I hear like a lot of people who, you know, who come into the community from other areas are like, I can’t believe how nice you guys.
Pardon me? It’s cause we’re killing our demons out. Like killing people. Yeah. We’re killing people all the time on paper.
We are exercising all our demons onto the page. We don’t have anything left.
Only good things left for your friends. Okay, that’s awesome. Okay, so I’ve also, I did my research and I have run across you saying in a couple different interviews that you live for the blank page.
Oh, I do.
And I thought that was such a beautifully optimistic view of writing that you don’t hear very often. Tell us about that.
Yeah, I do. I do live for the blank page. I mean, I have to say it’s the most exciting thing. It’s a portal, the portal to everything. You know, when the page is blank and you and your present for what you can be. Then there’s just a tremendous joy and excitement that I experienced. You know. In fact, I teach a class on creativity and I’ve done it a couple times with, with kids. I’ve gone into my daughter’s school and a couple of other schools.
Oh, neat.
And the only thing I bring for this class is a piece of paper and a pencil. And I give everybody one of these things and I tell them that this is everything. Every painting, every drawing, every line of poetry, every song, every film script, every novel, every single thing, every scientific theorem, every idea, everything can be accomplished with these two things.
Oh man, you’re giving me goosebumps over here. Literally.
Yeah, and you know, I’ve asked them, I said, the next time, you know we’ve talked about this whole class about the things that keep us from being creative and all of that. At the end, I tell them the next time you’re bored and you have been taught to fear your boredom. So the minute you’re bored, you pick up a device and you disappear into that device, the next time you’re bored, pick up a pencil and a piece of paper and do whatever it is that you want to do with it.
Yeah. And it’s such good advice.
It’s like the antidote to our concerns about time and our devices. That’s, that is really, it is such an optimistic, lovely way to look at things as opposed to the whole, you know, the blank page, you know, you rip open your veins and bleed on the paper, you know, it’s just such.
I know. I don’t get that at all. Like when people say that I just want to laugh, I’m like, that’s ridiculous.
And then I wonder, why are you spending your time doing it if that’s how you feel about it.
I just think, what a blessing, you know, the joy. What a joy to be able to create a world, you know, like what a, what a wonderful thing. I mean, I never wanted to do anything else. I never wanted to be anything else. So I feel a tremendous amount of gratitude that I am here and, you know, can make my living doing what I love. I mean that’s huge.
It is amazing. It’s an amazing gift. And we had talked to Hank Phillipi Ryan a few weeks ago and she said the same thing how thankful.
Another one of my besties.
Oh yeah?
She’s lovely. And, uh, you know, she thought that said the same thing about what a lovely gift it is to be able to be, to be doing what she’s doing. And I just thought, Oh, I love that. That’s just, that’s, I’m drawn to that, right. Instead of the whole blood, the way you all handle blood plenty. But you know, like,
You know, it’s, it’s like anything else that you do that you care about, you know, it’s obviously the act of, you know, it’s hard. It’s hard to get published. It’s harder. You know, the act of writing a novel is, you know, it’s a relationship. It’s a commitment, you know. It’s difficult to get published. It’s even harder to succeed once you are published. There’s tremendous, you know, there’s tremendous competition. You know, there are dizzying highs and crushing lows in the writing life for sure. But beneath it all, it’s, it’s just a gift to be able to do it. It’s just the blessing.
Well, Lisa, that’s why we wanted to talk to you today. We’re so happy to have had this opportunity.
So great to talk to you guys.
Before we go, we have a final question that we like to ask. It appeases our mysterious foodies, that’s what we call our listeners out there. Um, so which of your characters would you like to share a meal with and what would it be?
Oh my goodness. Um, I guess if there was going to be anybody, it would be Eloise Montgomery. She’s a recurring character in a number of my books that she first turned up in Fragile and she’s a psychic.
Oooo.
Yeah. When she first turned up I was like, Oh, cute. A psychic,
Thanks for visiting.
Even if your a fraud, that’s still interesting. You know, like I still want to get to know her better. And then in Fragile she had like a little tiny role to play. It was a pivotal role, but she didn’t have a lot of time on the page. And so I wound up writing another book about her Darkness, My Old Friend. And then I also wrote a novella, um, about her, which spans like 30 years of her life. And she came to being a psychic leader in life after a horrible accident, a terrible tragedy. And since then she’s had acquainted journey and I’m not gonna spoil any of it, but let’s just say she’s, she’s reached another evolution and I, I would be very interested to find out what she knows now after she is gone on to this next level. And I guess what would we eat? I don’t know. I guess we would just have a pizza.
A pizza?
Perfect! Pizza’s easy.
We’d have so much to talk about, I don’t know.
You don’t want to have to think about it, you know?
Yeah that’s not a very good foodie answer. If you want me to think about it more, I’m sure I come up with,
no, no, no, no. It’s good.
We like pizza.
Nothing better than pizza.
Right? That’s what I think. I mean you can make it really good.
Okay. So Lisa, if our listeners have any more questions or want more information about you and your books, what’s the best way for them to reach out?
Well you know, I’m easy to find, you know, you can find me on social media. I am interactive in real time on social media, Twitter, Facebook and Instagram primarily. There’s a FAQ on my website so pretty much anything you want to know about me can be, can be found there at lissaunger.com and yeah. And then if you are interested in experiencing the work without committing any money to it, if you sign up for my newsletter, you will automatically get a free short story.
Oh nice.
Oh, that’s great.
There you go.
We’re going to sign up too.
Go to Lisaunger.com. Yes we are.
Yup. And you can find him for the newsletters that are quite easily and you will get um, a PDF of a short story or if you are, you know, you don’t want to read electronically, I will send the story to you.
Very nice.
Wow, that’s awesome.
Well thank you again, internationally Best-selling author.
Thank you guys, this has been super fun.
Oh good. We’re glad you enjoyed it. We have a lot of fun with it and if you haven’t read her latest book, The stranger inside. Go out and get it. It’s a great read and you can listen to our last episode for book club ideas to go along with it, so have fun with that. Guess what? It’s time to say cheers. Cheers! Cheers!
Thanks for mysterious foodies out there for listening and sharing. Check out our website, gameofbookspodcast.com where you can find links to all we talk about and if you subscribe to our weekly newsletter, you can get those links sent directly to you along with any exciting updates. We are also on Facebook and Twitter under @gobwriters.
And if you enjoyed this episode as much as we did, we would love to hear from you and please subscribe to game of books where ever you listen to podcasts so you don’t miss any of our book club ideas and Corks and Conversations with award winning and bestselling authors.
That’s all for today’s episode of game of books podcast, where we share food, wine, and mystery every Friday morning, just in time for the weekend.
This is Christie.
and Cathi.
Saying, thanks for listening.
Bye everybody.
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